The interview of Selvarasa Padmanathan to Headline Today

Ceylon News | RaviShankar | June 28, 2009 at 4:27 pm

pathmanathanThe LTTE’s new chief Selvaraja Padmanathan says the group is giving up violence and adopting a non-violent agenda to secure the political rights of Tamils in Sri Lanka. In an exclusive email interview to Headlines Today, Padmanathan said one of the priorities of the Tamil Tigers would be to push for revoking the international ban on it.

The interview is as follows
1. Q- What are the facts about Mr Prabhakaran’s death ?

According to information I have, our leader Vellupillai Pirapakaran has attained martyrdom in the fight against the Sri Lankan armed forces on 17th of May 2009.

2. Were you in touch with Mr Prabhakaran during the final hours? What were the final moments like ?

a. Yes, I had contacts with our leader during the final hours until his communication link was active. My final contact was with Col Soosai who was leading the defensive resistance of LTTE against the Sri Lankan armed forces during the final hours. He described to me in detail what was happening on the ground then. The final moments were full of horrific and brutal attacks by Sri Lankan armed forces. Thousands of our people were killed and injured. There were no medical personnel or facilities to take care of the injured people. People were dying due to lack of medical attention. Col Soosai confirmed to me that our leader was engaging the Sri Lankan armed forces and sacrificed his life for our cause of the Eelam Tamil Nation.

b. What remains of Mr Prabhakaran’s family?

We have highly reliable information that our leader’s elder son Charles Antony and daughter Duvaraka were part of LTTE fighting formations and that they also attained martyrdom in the fight against the Sri Lankan armed forces during the final moments. Until now, we do not have accurate information on the fate of our leader’s wife, Mathivathani and their younger son Balachandran.

3. In an interview to Headlines Today Eric Solhiem said that the LTTE was in touch with him in the final hours of the last battle. Were you in touch with other world leaders ?

Yes. I had contacts with some world leaders. For diplomatic reasons we are not in a position to reveal the information on such contacts at this particular point in time.

b. Why did these efforts fail to bear fruit ?

International Community (IC) continued to insist on the LTTE laying down the arms before they took any meaningful steps to stop the war. Our leadership held the view that any process of laying down arms should be linked to an acceptable political solution. Instead of laying down of arms, we were seeking a ceasefire and a political negotiation for a political solution. Unfortunately our position was not acceptable to the International Community on the grounds that our position was not acceptable to the Sri Lankan Government, so no effective measures were taken to stop the war. In the final moments, after seeing the intensity and brutality of the offensive by the Sri Lankan armed forces and the non existence of any kind of medical facilities, our leadership then decided to silence our guns for the purpose of saving the lives of the civilians and the remaining cadres. Our leadership was concerned that if our organisation did not silence the guns, the Sri Lankan government would use it as justification for completing the massacre of our people. The message about silencing the guns was conveyed to me in the evening of the 15th of May. This was a Friday. We were working with the IC around the clock for the next 48 hours to implement an immediate ceasefire, and we got positive responses for our position of silencing the guns from the IC. Though the days left for us were a Saturday and Sunday of the weekend, members of the IC were trying to convince the Sri Lankan government to implement a ceasefire. But the response of the Sri Lankan Government remained negative. Sri Lankan Government and the armed forces were adamant on carrying out the final assault and finishing the final phase of their brutal massacre.

4. Many pro-LTTE leaders in India have criticised you for announcing that Mr Prabhakaran is dead, this includes people like Mr Vaiko and Mr Nedumaran. It is reported that individuals within the LTTE’s structure do not accept that Mr Prabhakaran is dead. How do you see this?

The message I brought to the Tamil people was very bad and a sad one. Of course, it also took me many hours to take the message in and accept the reality. Some carders and a large section of Tamil people were in disbelief of the news that I brought out. I understand their state of mind and I am very sympathetic towards them. Their reactions were the result of their emotions. As a responsible liberation movement, we cannot hide the truth from our people. It is also politically wrong to hide the truth from our people.

5. Does your assertion that the LTTE has shunned the path of violence have wide acceptability within the organisation? Is this permanent or does the LTTE retain its right to take up arms later?

The decision of silencing our guns was taken by our leader before his death. We are now moving forward towards a new path. This position has attracted wider acceptance within the organisation. LTTE’s political position is that any political solution for the Tamil national question should be based on the recognition of the fundamental principles of political aspiration of the Tamil people, i.e., recognition of Tamils as a nation, having the Northeast as their historical homeland and that they are entitled to right to self determination. We will continue our fight through political means until these aspirations of the Tamil people are realised. We will stick to this position. If you read the history of the evolution of armed struggles, you can clearly observe that fundamentally an armed struggle has its roots in oppression, occupation and denial of the political means of protest and denial of the democratic rights for fighting for the cause of an oppressed people. This also happened to us and the armed struggle of the LTTE was the historical product of injustice against the Tamil Nation. LTTE has now chosen to take the political path. I would leave the question of another armed struggle towards the rights of Tamil people for the pages of history.

6. What do you have to say to people within the organisation and sympathisers outside who still believe that only an armed struggle is the means to achieve Tamil Eelam?

Our leader had faced tremendous challenges during his more than three decades of armed struggle. He achieved the maximum that he could achieve within the prevailing conditions. He was very committed to the cause. Due to a world order that rotates on the axis of self interest, our armed struggle could not attract sympathy among the world countries. Instead, we have seen that the Sri Lankan Government has utilised the present world order and the geo-political structures to mobilise the entire world on its side. This was the fundamental reason for our military defeat in the recent war. The best option left for us is to be firm on the cause and the principles, and fight through the political means in our next phase of the struggle.

7. a. How do you respond to reports that talk of a split in the LTTE and a power struggle within the organisation?

I deny it. It is true that there were different views amongst us on the issue of announcing our leader’s death. We were not successful in reaching an agreement on the issue. We are now working to resolve the differences through dialogue.

b. What role will you play in the organisation going ahead?

As the head of the Department of International Relation of LTTE, I will lead the political programme and the required international relations for winning the international support for our course. We are planning a restructure of our organisation and will inform the Tamil people and the world when we make it.

c. What role will the new non-violent LTTE play in the future?

LTTE will continue to fight for the political aspirations of the Tamil people based on the principles of Tamil nationhood, homeland and right to self-determination. As we have decided to choose a new path, we are now transforming our organisation for the purpose of continuing our fight through political means. As one of our tasks, we need to work with the IC to remove the ban on our organisation with support of the Tamil Diaspora and fellow Tamils in Tamil Nadu and in other parts of the World. We hope that the IC, especially India and the West, would welcome our new path and reward it by removing the ban on our organisation to open the door for political engagement.

8. Can you tell us about the provisional Transnational government of Tamil Eelam? How will it be different from other governments in exile, which have not been very effective?

A committee has been formed to create a provisional Transnational Government of Tamil Eelam under the leadership of our legal advisor, Visuvanathan Rudrakumaran. There are some conceptual differences between a transnational government and an exile government. I think that the coordinator of the Formation Committee, Mr Rudrakumaran, would be the right person to answer this question further.

9. Will the LTTE consider participating directly in elections in Sri Lanka? You have sought a link up with the TNA, how will this relationship work?

We do not see any rationale or space for participating in the elections in Sri Lanka. Fighting the cause through political means does not necessarily mean participating in the elections. LTTE would not participate in the elections until a political settlement is reached based on the principles of Tamil nationhood, homeland and right to self determination. We do not seek a linkup between LTTE and TNA, but realise the importance for a link up in the political programmes in the Tamil homeland and among the Diaspora. It is too early to comment on how this common understanding would emerge and function.

10. What is your message to President Rajapakse?

Sri Lankan Government may have defeated the LTTE militarily but not politically. The fundamental causes for the Tamils struggle for self- determination remain unaddressed. Over the years since its independence, Sri Lankan democracy has become a strong Sinhala majoritarian dictatorship. Sri Lankan parliament, government and judiciary have been functioning as instruments for establishing Sinhala hegemony over Tamils and Muslims. The recent claim by President Rajapakse that there was only one country and one people in Sri Lanka, without recognising the identity of Tamils and Muslims in that island would lead to dangerous consequences for ethnic harmony there in the future. It is also absurd to make a claim that the island has no majority and minority, but only patriots and non-patriots, and this while ruling the country under Sinhala hegemony. President Rajapakse must understand that Sri Lanka has miserably failed in nation building. Tamils in Sri Lanka and in the Diaspora do not identify themselves as Sri Lankans but as Eelam Tamils. Tamils consider Sri Lankan rule as an alien rule. In this scenario, the only option left for true reconciliation is recognising the Tamils’ political aspirations, Tamils as a nation; their historical homeland in the Northeast, and that they are entitled to the right to self- determination. Now president Rajapakse has very strong popular support among the Sinhala people. If he decides to recognise the political aspirations of Tamil people, chances for strong resistance from the Sinhala people are minimal. If he considers himself as a true leader who treats all communities as equals, then he must prove himself by accepting the political aspirations of Tamil people.

11. How do you view India’s role during what is now being called “Eelam War IV”? Do you think India could have done more to save Tamil civilians?

In the recent war, India took side with Sri Lanka firmly and provided full support to Sri Lanka. It is not a secret. Sri Lankan leaders, military commanders and Indian officials openly admitted it. Our organisation and the Tamil people have become victims of this Indian position. Even though we are fully aware how India has contributed for the military victory of Sri Lanka, we do not hate India. We consider Tamil people would be the true and reliable friends of India in its own geo-political struggle with other countries, especially with China. We firmly believe India would realise this one day in the future and support Eelam Tamils struggle for self determination.

If India had decided to do something more to save the civilian lives, it would have stopped the war when Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu, Mr. M Karunanidhi, and other political leaders called for a ceasefire back in November 2008.

12. Will you initiate direct contact with India? Is there a role India can play in the formation of the proposed Provisional Transnational Government of Tamil Eelam?

Yes. I would initiate direct contacts with India and request to remove the ban on LTTE and seek support for Eelam Tamils political aspirations.

At conceptual level, support from other states is not a precondition for the formation of a transnational government. This is a people based exercise to be carried out at transnational level by the Tamil Diaspora. Of course, there is no doubt that the support from friendly States will strengthen the Transnational Government and the cause for which it would be working for. The committee for formation of the Provisional Transnational Government of Tamil Eelam would seek the support for the Transnational Government from many countries, importantly India.

13. There are some LTTE fighters who are still active in Sri Lanka. They are said to be operating from the forests in the East. Col. Ram is said to be a prominent leader. What information do you have about this group? What will your relation with these groups going ahead?

We have contact with them. They are following our new path by silencing their guns and functioning under my guidance. I am very much concerned about their safety and security since we could not reach any kind of acceptable mechanism for ensuring their safety. I strongly feel that the IC must take more responsibility on this matter.

14. The Sri Lankan government has launched an international campaign against you, seeking your capture. How do you see these efforts? How do you react to the Sri Lankan Government’s charges against you?

I have read this news in the newspapers. I have been part of our liberation movement which took arms to fight for the legitimate rights of the Tamil Nation. This struggle has its justification under international law. A military defeat cannot erase the justification of the struggle. I have not done any crime or harm against humanity. Furthermore, I am now leading the process of transforming and developing our organisation as a political organisation. The decision of this transformation is taken for the interest of Tamil Nation, but it would also be beneficial for the Sinhalese and Muslims in the island. It is also important for the peace and stability in the island and indeed the region. I hope that actors concerned on the issue would approach it in a pragmatic way. However, I am ready to take any kind of risk or even to sacrifice my life for the sake of the Tamil cause.

15. What is the truth about Pottu Amman, the Sri Lanka government says he is dead but they have not been able to give any evidence?

According to our information, Pottu Amman has also attained martyrdom on 17th of May 2009 in the fight against the Sri Lankan armed forces.

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13 Comments

  1. King Elara says:

    Selvarasa Pathmanathan, the self proclaimed leader of LTTE has only one thing in mind…MONEY..MONEY and MORE MONEY. Now that the dream of Eelam is gone he is worried that the Tamil Diaspora would not contribute anymore. So he has lost his bread and butter? No!!! He won’t let that happen. As long as he keeps the Eelam dream alive, MONEY FLOWS and the inocent Diaspora will dream and dream until they go to their graves and Pathmanathan will earn for his great great grand-children. Good Luck Pathmanathan. You are one in a millenium.

  2. Tharan Tharan says:

    I agree KIng Elare about S.Pathmanathan but Eelam dream will never die,It has become stronger now.”Thamilar thagam Thamileela thayakam”

  3. Vaaman Vaaman says:

    hmmm.–…..maybe….

  4. jayenthiARUN says:

    THIS IS NOT TRUSTABLE.WE CANT ACCEPT THAT THE LEADER HADN’T ANY BROAD MINDED IDEA ABOUT THE ACTION MOVEMENT OF THE ORGANISATION WITHOUT HIM.AND ALSO ITS NOT ACCEPTABLE THAT ALL SOME LEADERS ARE DIED IN A SAME SINGLE BATTLE.WITHOUT THE VOICE OF THE LEADERS WHO LED THE FINAL BATTLE WE CANT ACCEPT ANYONE AS LTTE LEADER AND TO FOLLOW THEM.WE ARE AWAITING FOR THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF ANYONE OF THE FINAL BATTLEMEN OF MULLIVAAIKKAL.AND MORE TRANSPROVISIONAL GOVT CANT ACHIEVE ANYTHING WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF TAMILS IN EELAM. THEY CANT DECIDE ANYTHING WITHOUT ANALYSING THEM.” ADIVERGALAI VITTU KILAIGAL MATTUM THANIYAGA THALAIPPATHILLAI”.ALL TAMILS ARE WAITING FOR THE ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE PRABHAKARAN ELSE SOOSAI ELSE POTTUAMMAN ELSE SOME OTHER BATTLEMEN.SELVARASA PADNAMBA’S PLEADING THE SUPPORT OF INDIA FOR THE NON-VIOLENT ORGANISATION OF LTTE IS MORE SUSPECTABLE ABOUT HIS HONEST.

  5. King Elara says:

    Keeping the EELAM dream alive is GREAT but what the Tamil Diaspora must realize is that EELAM in Sri Lanka is out of the question. It is too small a country to divide. The Singhalese,the Tamils or the Muslims can never live in peace if it is divided. So what the Tamil Diaspora must do is create EELAM in countries like Canada, Australia, England or Norway. They have a lot of space there and there are a lot of EELAM sympathizers in those countries. So why not focus on establishing EELAM in one of those counries. My proposal is Canada because the Tamil population in Canada is the biggest compared to other countries, other than India and they have a LOT of SPACE there. Lets go for EELAM IN CANADA.

  6. Tharan Tharan says:

    Firstly; the reason why there cannot be a Tamil Eelam in Canada is because the population of Tamils in Canada is not significant. Secondly, the purpose of creating an Eelam is for Tamils to govern themselves; having a referendum in a country such as Canada is near impossible; the French are a much larger population in Quebec, but the referendum was in favor of separation. There is no way at all there could be a country within Canada devoted to a minority which isn’t even the 3rd most common race in Canada.

    Secondly; Eelam should be in Sri Lanka for the same reasons Israel was given near Palestine; cultural significance. Having Eelam, a country that Tamils can call their own, in a place that has nothing to do with Tamils is just plain wrong. With no history, there is no nationality. With no nationality or national identity, the country will fail.

    Thirdly; Just because there are sympathizers doesn’t mean they are ready to let Tamils make a country in their own. That would probably make the sympathizers feel violated. For example; during slave times in America, there were plenty of black sympathizers; however, a lot of them didn’t want to live next to black people because ethnocentrism was abundant.

    How long did you think about this?
    That was a ridiculous thing to say.

  7. King Elara says:

    That’s a good argument Tharan. Well said. But do you want the Tamils and the Singhaleese killing each other off for generations and generations like the Israelis and the Palestinians. The Western countries would love to see that happen.

    What good is history and nationality and culture and ethnicity if you are not sure whether you will live long enough to have lunch that day or your loved ones will return home in the evening without being blasted into bits by a parcel bomb or being shelled by artillery or bombs dropped from the air.

    If we can’t establish Eelam in a peaceful country, then we must bring peace to Eelam. That is we must look at Eelam from a different angle. We must make Sri Lanka adopt principles adopted by countries like Singapore. “All cultures can live in harmony by having a common language like English to work with but each ethnicity must keep their culture and language alive by passing them on from generation to generation” Singapore has no problems. So why cann’t Sri Lanka do the same.

  8. Tharan Tharan says:

    You are wrong; the Palestines and the Israeli got along until after the second world war, much like the Tamils and the Sinhalese, until the English left and a democracy (in traditional Plato philosophy) was forced on that small country. Democracy, being the majority opressing the minority. The “centuries of fighting” you are referring to is from the crusades, which really doesn’t have much to do with the conflict that is happening in Palestine today. The truth is, both of these wars have something in common – the stronger force is trying to expand into the other peoples’ land. By having an Eelam where the boarders are internationally recognized, then the Sri Lankan government will have no choice but to respect the boarders or face great embargoes and international attention until they are forced to stop. It is no longer possible for Tamils and Sinhalese to live together in harmony again, after the Sir Lankan government has massacred and raped so many innocent Tamils.

    The only solution is to recognize Tamil Eelam.

  9. King Elara says:

    My dear Tharan, if the Tamils, Singhalese and the Muslims in Sri Lanka have the same attitute as yours, then of course they can never live in peace even if they are seperated by internationally recognized borders. For example: India and Pakistan. Israel and Palestine. You cannot deny that there are no terrorist activities going on in these countries. Its because of the attitude problem. “You killed one of mine so I’ll kill two of yours.” If the Sri Lankan people are to live in peace they must change that attitude before anything else.

    By the way Tharan, I don’t know if you are aware, the Muslim community in Sri Lanka has had their minds set on the Eastern Province as their homeland if Eelam had been established. This was just an underground rumour. But that’s how the fight for Eelam started also – underground. If Eelam did come true I wonder who would be fighting whom because Eelam consists of Eastern Province also. Reminds me the war between East and West Pakistan.

  10. Tharan Tharan says:

    And I suppose you think that we should let the Sri Lankan government get away with the unjustified killing of over 25, 000 Tamils, right? My attitude is shared by most Tamils, and the prospect of peace is even less likely if we are within the boarders of a corrupt government like Sri Lanka. And if the Muslims want a separate part of Sri Lanka to be their own, who can blame them? Is it wrong for them to want a homeland too?

    It’s not a “you killed one of mine we kill two of yours situation”. It’s a “we can’t trust your government any longer” situation. The thousands who have died are a testament to the inability of the government to equitably serve all people within the nation. The people must have faith in government if the government is to control aspects of protection and policing. The loss of faith is justified. Sri Lanka had a chance to stop, and they have failed. They have been failing for 30 years. Now is the time for a new solution.

  11. King Elara says:

    On the contrary my dear, wiping out the entire LTTE hierarchy within just two and half years shows that this government unlike its predecessors have a detemination to bring about a solution to whatever conflict there was.

    For the past thirty years the LTTE never compromised on anything. They had only one thing in mind and that was separation. So what they did was just play with time staging peace talks in different parts of the world whilst building up their arsenal. It is true that the previous governments of Sri Lanka dined and wined with the LTTE but could not bring a solution because nobody had a solution. It was too complicated for them because to separate or not to separate was the question.

    When the present government came into power they also invited the LTTE for peace talks but what did the LTTE do. They walked out on the peace talks and provoked the government by stopping the distribution of water to villages in the Eastern Province.

    So what the present government did was simplify the equation.
    What the LTTE wanted was seperation and what the present government wanted was an undivided country. It was one on one. No more x and y factors. It was a do or die situation and the LTTE had to face the consequences.

    It is true that a war cannot be fought without deaths and casualties. The Defence Secretary admitted after the war was over that nearly 20,000 government soldiers were injured, nearly 2,000 were permanently disabled and nearly 6,000 were killed within the humanitarian operation itself. In any kind of war Civilians get caught in the middle and die too. What the LTTE did was show the world that their cadres were civilians too by removing the gun and explosives from the dead-body because the cadres were innocent civilians forced to fight. Some were children as young as 12 years old, dressed shabilly or in school uniforms not to look like a fighting force.

    Same time the LTTE exploded bombs on the ground, in and around civilian homes, hospitals and schools to make craters to show on satellite photos aerial bombardment or heavy artillery fire on civilians. They even broadcasted on their web sites photos taken from the actual sites but to their benefit with unbelievable numbers. So the world was duped into thinking that the army was killing innocent civilians. How clever of the LTTE.

    Adolf Hitler had once told his propaganda Minister,” If you want to tell a lie to the people to make a real impact on them, say it as big as possible.” So, what the LTTE has done was the same thing. First they made 200 civilians 2,000 and when it was gulped in, slowly they made those 2,000 civilians 20,000 civilians. It was as simple as adding a zero at the end. It is undeniable that LTTE propaganda mechanism was much much more superior than that of the government.

    As for the Muslim community, they too feel that being under the Tamils in the Eastern Province would make them the minority and thus a separate homeland is the only solution. Would this kind of ideas bring about peace to Sri Lanka. Never. Therefore it is the firm belief of the present government to bring all communities under one flag, as a one nation and one nationality and that is Sri Lankan. It takes time. Wounds don’t heal in minutes or in a day. Bigger and more serious the wound is the longer it takes to heal given the proper medication of course. This government knows and has the medication for the 30 year old wound of Sri Lanka. Already the antigens have been recognized and removed. There may be left overs but they will also be dealt with. The healing process has begun.

    Lets have faith in the doctor and help with the healing.

  12. Tharan Tharan says:

    Don’t call me dear, I am not your dear.
    Respect people you argue with, don’t patronize them.

    The “facts” you have presented are nothing more than propaganda. Perhaps it could be true, but they are accusations that have no real grounds and evidence; partly because of the opaque nature of the Sri Lankan government; they will not allow international media to cover the area. What the English media did catch however, were army planes shelling running civilians.

    Forget the LTTE for a moment; if the government marginalizes the minority Tamils, then the needs of Tamils in Sri Lanka are not met. Ever since the first riots 30 years ago, where a thousand or more Tamils have died, they have been fighting for the removal of this marginalization. This marginalization has continued, and instead of trying to convice a government that would kill them before they would consider their needs, Sri Lankan Tamils have decided that governing themselves would be more effective. With war chants claiming this war “is for our race”, it’s hard for Tamils to side with the Sri Lankan government. This was evident in a confession in a speech of the wife of a Sinhalese reporter who sympathized for Tamils spoken in Geneva.

    Bangaladesh has a separate culture, and refused to learn Urdu as their main language. Now they cannot be bullied into it by another country since they are separate. So should Tamils be free to have their own culture, instead of being forced to conform to Sinhalese customs.

    Forcing people to be a part of a country that opresses them is no such solution, it will heal no 30 year old scars, and faith has done nothing. We couldn’t even know if the government was trying to heal it; the government is trying to hide something. This argument has no evidence in our present world that proves it would work, it is without precedent. However, many countries have separated and their peoples had their respective needs met.

  13. King Elara says:

    First of all I must apologize for being disrespectful to you but it was never with intention to patronize you. Calling you dear was my way of being friendly and nothing more than that.

    I consider this argument a friendly and mutual one because its just between the two of us. I also admire your enthusiasm in continuing this argument.I don’t know about you but I am enjoying this argument very much.

    I know this is not a game but I am not representing the Government of Sri Lanka and I suppose you’re not representing the Tamil Diaspora. So our arguments don’t have an impact on any of them. Hence, we can speak out what’s in our heart and mind and wouldn’t hurt anybody even if we don’t have genuine facts and figures.

    There is one aspect of this argument that I really appreciate and enjoy and that is getting an opportunity to correspond with someone who has opposite opinions to mine. Otherwise this would not be an argument and we would not know what the other party is thinking.

    Personally, I have nothing against Tamils. Some of my best friends in school were Tamils. I even had a love affair with a Tamil Girl from Jaffna who was permanently residing in Colombo. Unfortunately for me, her father got permanent residence visa in Singapore while working there and the family migrated to Singapore.

    Culturally, the Singhalese have no differences with Tamils. The Singhalese people enjoy Tamil food, worship Hindu Gods, wear Indian clothing, watch Tamil and Hindi films. If you check out Colombo about 80% of the businesses are owned by either Tamils or Muslims. So who says we are harrasing Tamils. What happened in 1983 was a big mistake. The situation was created by some political extremists called JVP but the whole country had to suffer.

    The civil war was not against Tamils. It was against a band of terrorists who were trying to disrupt the country claiming to bring freedom to The Tamil poulation. Now that those people are gone, Sri Lanka is starting a new life, a new beginning. The black americans in USA didn’t ask for a seperate country, they only asked for equality. Today they have a black President. So who knows, one day there will be a Tamil President in a united Sri Lanka. I am very optimistic about this.

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